斯蒂芬?布呂克曼：海綿城市的綜合水環(huán)境設計

斯蒂芬·布呂克曼（Stefan Brückmann）：

　　斯蒂芬·布呂克曼，德國戴水道設計城市水文工程部全球技術總監(jiān)。擁有20年的專業(yè)水文經(jīng)驗，斯蒂芬不斷加深他在流域、河流和城市地區(qū)生態(tài)水系統(tǒng)管理方面的專業(yè)知識，將其納入基礎設施建設和城市發(fā)展之中。代表項目有：丹麥哥本哈根城市防洪保護實施規(guī)劃，德國奧斯特菲爾登沙恩豪瑟公園，德國柏林波茨坦廣場，德國新烏爾姆海納-梅茨格廣場，德國辛德芬根邁巴赫卓越中心，奧地利林茨太陽城，芬蘭坦佩雷沃爾斯中央公園，阿聯(lián)酋阿布扎比扎耶德國家博物館，美國紐約皇后區(qū)植物園，美國俄勒岡州波特蘭坦納斯普林斯公園，中國天津里唐文化公園，中國天津文化中心，中國天津張家窩新城，中國湖南株洲城市流域總體規(guī)劃，臺灣臺北電信公園。新加坡碧山宏茂橋公園，新加坡JTC清潔技術中心。
　　最新獎項有：
　　天津文化中心　
　　2013年亞洲國際房地產(chǎn)獎銅獎最佳城市再生項目類　　
　　2013年標志獎城市概念規(guī)劃類伐夫赫芬生態(tài)居住區(qū)　
　　2013年德國可持續(xù)發(fā)展獎城鎮(zhèn)類裕廊清潔技術產(chǎn)業(yè)園　
　　2013年新加坡景觀設計師學會金獎碧山宏茂橋公園　　
　　2013年新加坡景觀行業(yè)協(xié)會優(yōu)質銀獎

戴水道的設計理念

景觀中國：請為我們介紹一下戴水道在中國的發(fā)展情況，有哪些水環(huán)境治理項目正在進行中？

布呂克曼：戴水道公司在2001年的時候在中國開展工作，在上海參加了我們的第一個競賽項目。他們的開發(fā)商去過德國考察，對德國的建筑設計很感興趣。后來我們和德國的一家建筑公司一起到中國參加一個展會，認識了我們第一個重要的甲方，天津張家窩社會山項目的甲方，從2006年開始合作張家窩的項目。這就是我們在中國的第一個海綿城市項目。

天津張家窩

　　接下來，我們又參加了一些競賽。第二個競賽是天津文化公園項目的競賽，我們贏得了競賽，接到天津文化中心的委托來完成這個設計。這個項目是和德國萊茵之華集團合作完成的，我們負責其中的景觀部分和生態(tài)水系統(tǒng)設計。我們將海綿城市的理念落實到項目中，其中有一個特別大的湖體是這個項目的難點，我們使周邊所有雨水都通過海綿系統(tǒng)收集到湖里，既通過有效的生態(tài)管理補給了湖水量，也使湖體也經(jīng)過比較有效的自然凈化手段保持較好的水質。通過這個項目，天津逐漸成為了我們一個穩(wěn)定的客戶。另外一個是我們在天津空港完成的國際商務園項目，這是和德國GMP建筑公司合作的。他們做了一個圓形街區(qū)的規(guī)劃，也是以一個人工湖為核心,周邊被商務區(qū)環(huán)繞，我們也非常巧妙的做出了一個完整的海綿管理系統(tǒng)。后來，又在北京、廣州、重慶、杭州陸陸續(xù)續(xù)開展了類似的海綿城市項目。比如說，正在北京進行的國瑞經(jīng)典住宅項目，這是一個非常高端的生態(tài)小區(qū)項目，是和國際知名建筑事務所諾曼福斯特合作的，目標是得到美國綠色建筑認證的最高獎項。廣州的五月花項目，也是和諾曼福斯特進行合作。在重慶，我們做了雙塔項目，圍繞著在重慶乃至是在中國最高的雙塔——雙子星大廈，在周邊進行了生態(tài)水系和生態(tài)公園項目。在杭州，我們的業(yè)主是華為，通過景觀和生態(tài)的結合為它規(guī)劃了一個景色優(yōu)美的園區(qū)，并在園區(qū)里成功地實施了海綿城市系統(tǒng)。

天津文化公園

天津空港商務園

北京國瑞金鼎

重慶雙子大廈

　　我認為最重要的是我們的生態(tài)河道項目。比如在張家窩的項目里，我們將居住區(qū)的發(fā)展融入到海綿城市系統(tǒng)中去。這個居住區(qū)內(nèi)所覆蓋的河流本不屬于開發(fā)商的建設范圍，而我們非常成功的幫助城市污水河道進行了恢復，使它最后融入到周圍的社區(qū)當中，成為一個清水宜居的區(qū)域。另一個是株洲的項目，我們完成了一個"一江四港"水系的規(guī)劃，在這個大的規(guī)劃框架中，我們又在它的上游完成了株洲與峰湖生態(tài)體育公園的規(guī)劃。在這個生態(tài)體育公園里，我們也運用了海綿城市的理念，通過水系的串通、水系生態(tài)的恢復做成了一個針對周邊整個水文系統(tǒng)的海綿體，以減輕洪澇傾瀉，節(jié)約水資源。在株洲的一個新城中，我們還完成了對整個城市海綿體系的構建，提出了相應的方針，這是在城市尺度上非常完整的案例。

天津張家窩居住區(qū)

　　我們參加了很多競標，在這項目中始終把生態(tài)水文和海綿城市的工作相結合，比如南昌贛江的"一江兩岸"項目、深圳的"寶安活水新城規(guī)劃"和"深圳北站周邊地區(qū)的規(guī)劃"、南京的"長江冰水風光帶"的規(guī)劃。

南昌贛江的“一江兩岸”

深圳的“寶安活水新城規(guī)劃”

深圳北站周邊地區(qū)的規(guī)劃

　　因此，我們有兩個著眼點：一個是海綿城市的設計，一個是生態(tài)河道的設計。

LAC：Could you introduce the development of Atelier Dreiseitl in China ? What projects about water environment al management are ongoing?

Brückmann：Atelier Dreseitl started to work in China in 2001 when we were at our first project for competition in Shanghai. The developer actually has taken exploration in Germany, so they were interested in the Germany architecture. Then we came with a Germany architecture company to attend an exhibition in Beijing where we met our first client - Zhangjiawo, Society Hill in Tianjin. This is our first sponge city construction in China in 2006.
　　Then several competitions were followed. One of the competitions was for the culture park in TCC in Tianjin with our partner RhineScheme and we won the competition. In this project, we actually designed this big lake in TCC in Tianjin. That was the second competition, the realization competition. We have been part of this project and we have done the landscape architecture and water management design. We implemented sponge city concept to the project, which means the whole entire set collected storm water, treat it and release to the central lake. Through this project, Tianjin has become more and more stable partner for us as a client. The other project is the Tianjin airport GC Park, and we did it with GMP, the architects of which also did the architecture of Opera in the TCC side. The design of the project is a round lake in the middle, surrounded by commercial areas. And the landscape design was integrated with water management. These are the big projects in Tianjin. There are some other projects and competitions together with Foster Architects, such as Guorui in Beijing, May Flower in Guangzhou, the new development with Twin Tower in Chongqing and the new commercial center of Huawei in Hangzhou together with Henn Architects.
　　Then the very important I think is our river projects, like the project in Zhangjiawo. Because the one part was the residential area developed with sponge city systems. The residential area covers a river, which was not owned by the developer, but we did the river restoration to reflect how it worked and how to clean the water. We did a very good project in Zhuzhou, Changsha, called 'one river, four streams'. We provided the masterplan and implemented the already started area, the new area and new golf course area, river restoration and the guideline for urbanization with integrated water management.
　　Then there are a lot of competitions in Nanchang, Xian, Nanjing and Shenzhen. All these projects are related with water management. So our goal is we carry on and focus on sponge city projects and river restoration projects.

景觀中國：戴水道在全球領域開展設計工作，在德國、新加坡、中東、中國這些不同的地域文化下，設計工作有哪些差異和共通點？

布呂克曼：我從共同點開始說起，這樣更容易理解。不同的甲方對項目的理解和希望是類似的，都想要追求更健康、更好的生活環(huán)境，這些項目也是為了實現(xiàn)城市化、推進城市發(fā)展而建設的。由于戴水道長久的發(fā)展歷史和經(jīng)驗，我們可以提供從實踐項目中得來的經(jīng)驗，這是甲方最需要，他們需要設計師清楚地知道，到底有什么是可以從理論模型中付諸于實踐的。
我認為每個設計項目都與當?shù)氐奈幕嚓P。對于我們公司來說，開始時就要學習研究當?shù)匚幕牟煌c。但是我們終歸都是生活在同一個地球上的人類，有著共同的藝術、相似的需求和愿景。對這一點的理解幫助我們?yōu)榧追胶腿藗兲峁┮罁?jù)和想法，引導他們應該怎樣去進行設計，如何將水文系統(tǒng)融入到項目當中。
　　對于不同點來說，主要是氣候、地形、人口聚集度、水文系統(tǒng)、以及城市設計和規(guī)劃體系的不同。在德國，我們不會擁有中國或亞洲這么多的人口。而水資源的可利用性和甲方間的差異，也是去理解不同地區(qū)文化和城市設計情況的重要之處。我們要知道所有這些不同點，以及人們在當?shù)氐臍v史下對于事情如何做出反應，這就需要我們?nèi)W習如何用現(xiàn)代化的設計手法把不同的條件融入到項目中去。
　　列舉幾個例子：在中東，我們會討論為什么在水資源不足的情況下還要建設水景。因為在中東和沙漠，只有在有水的地方才會有生命，這是我們希望強調(diào)的一點。所以在中東，人們會聚集在能接觸到水的區(qū)域里。因此我們建造了一個漂亮的區(qū)域，即使很難得到水也要設計水景。另一方面在德國，水資源非常豐富，然而在不容易建造水體環(huán)境的區(qū)域，人們就會遺忘水。因此我們需要在能建造水體環(huán)境的區(qū)域，盡量讓水體可見，具有功能性又美觀。
　　差異與文化和人們的經(jīng)歷相關。在農(nóng)村地區(qū)，我們會發(fā)現(xiàn)由于當?shù)亟逃穆浜螅藗儾恢涝鯓永脧U水和資源。在德國，保護水資源的責任從個人開始，因為我們有水供應和廢水管理的集中系統(tǒng)。在中國和亞洲國家城市化程度高的區(qū)域，也有和我們一樣的法規(guī)，政府機構會負責部分水處理工作。但我們認為這只是一種手段，而不是處理水的最佳方式，在未來人們應該對水保有更大的責任感，與水環(huán)境的關系更加親密。當我們的項目為人們提供了清潔的河水時，就可以看到人與水的關系已經(jīng)開始轉變，他們完全改變態(tài)度并開始注意保護水資源了。

LAC：Atelier Dreiseitl has worked on design projects all over the world, such as Germany, Singapore, Middle East and China, could you tell us the differences and similarities of design works under such different regional cultures?

Brückmann： I start with the similarities, because it is much easier to understand. The similarities of all these projects are the clients wish they could receive better and healthier urban environment in the projects. Of course the projects are constructed for urban development and urbanization. Because of the long history and experience Atelier Dreiseitl has, we could provide the realized projects' experiences from realization. This is what our clients really need, and they need designers and planners who have the clear picture of what can be done from the theoretical modeling designs.
　　I think the design work in every place is always connected to the local culture. For us, it is a work from the beginning to study and learn what kind of differences are there in this culture. But in the end, we are all human beings living on the same planet, having the same art, similar needs and wishes. This helps us to give guidelines and visions to the clients and to the people that how to do the design and how to integrate water functions into the projects. The major differences are that the climates, topography, the amount of people are different. In Germany, we have no such a big population like China or other Asia countries. The availability of water and the clients' difference are important to understand the culture and urban design in each land in the country. We have to get to know all these differences and to know how people react in that history. This is what we have to learn that how to use modern design language to translate it.
　　I give some examples. In the Middle East, we have to discuss why they design water feature even if there is enough water. We always try to bring to the point that only with water, it is possible for people to start life in the Middle East and in the desert. People stay in the area where there is natural oasis or it is accessible to water easily. We think to translate it in modern urban design that if we create a nice place, you have to display and show water even if it is hard to get water. On the other hand, we have a plenty of water in Germany, we think that even there it is not easy to implement water system in urban environment, people forget about water. Even there water is easy to show, sometimes it tries to make water visible and keep it visible with functional systems and aesthetic design systems.
　　Differences are related to the culture and to the experiences of people. So when we go here into landscape or rural areas, then I see that because of lack of education, people do not know what to do with the waste water and how to treat our nature resources. In Germany, responsibility has been taken from people, because we have centralized systems for water supply and waste water management. In modern urban area of China and Asia countries, we have the same principle and part of the responsibility has been taken by public authorities to treat water and handle water in an urban water circle. We think that it is not a good way to deal with water. We think that in the future people should get more responsibility and freely connect to water in environment. We can see in our projects how it works when it provides clear rivers and clear water features. People completely change their mind and start to protect water resources.

景觀中國：戴水道加盟Ramboll集團后，如何利用互補優(yōu)勢進一步推動可持續(xù)城市發(fā)展？在水和環(huán)境部門拓展了哪些業(yè)務？

布呂克曼： 我們慢慢地對Ramboll集團加深理解，就像夫妻一樣，結婚之后會慢慢的了解自己的伴侶。我們也花了時間建立了良好的人際關系，并看到我們現(xiàn)在所擁有的可能性和機會。我認為加入后的一個巨大優(yōu)勢，是我們現(xiàn)在有能力做更大的項目了，尤其是像在中國地區(qū)。Ramboll 集團能夠為我們提供更多各種類型的服務，現(xiàn)在我們就能對河段、廢水處理、雨水管理和景觀設計上提供全面的基礎設施規(guī)劃。未來，我們將會設置城市設計部門，從而真正提供對全球日益增長城市的進行全方面設計。另外，我們現(xiàn)在也在參與一些城市設計、綜合雨洪管理、河道設計以及景觀設計項目的競標，也希望在不久的將來，我們能真正落實整個的城市發(fā)展規(guī)劃項目。

LAC：After Atelier Dreiseitl joining Ramboll Group, how to facilitate sustainable city development further with complementary advantages? What other businesses has Atelier Dreiseitl developed in related water environmental department?

Brückmann： I think we slowly get to understand Ramboll Group. Like when you get married, after the marriage, you get to know you partner much better. It takes time to lead people to get personal relationship, to see what kind of possibilities and opportunities we have now. We think the big advantage is now, especially for China(there are always much bigger projects in China), we could deal with the big projects. Ramboll Group can provide more services and sorts of services, so now we can provide the whole infrastructure program for reaches, waste water management, storm water and landscape design. In the future, we will have urban design group. So we could really provide the whole range of growing global cities. Meanwhile we are doing a lot of competitions for urban planning, integrated storm management, river design, and landscape design. We think in the near future, we can provide the whole program for the urban development.

景觀中國：德國波茨坦廣場以及近期的哥本哈根項目都完成了防水排澇的規(guī)劃，成功的將公共綠地與排水系統(tǒng)結合在一起，在項目中您面臨了哪些挑戰(zhàn)？

布呂克曼： 波茨坦廣場的難點有兩方面。第一方面是之前德國剛剛實施頒布了一部分法令，它規(guī)定在城市區(qū)域新開發(fā)的地方，產(chǎn)生的暴雨徑流需要進行源頭管理，通過進化儲存慢慢地釋放到周邊的河道中去。第二個是和我們合作的建筑師Renzo Piano，他在規(guī)劃的體系當中，把城市水體看成了一個非常重要的空間元素，這就對水質提出了非常高的要求。但最后我們把設計的要求和水系統(tǒng)功能的要求結合了起來，成功地完成了項目。

德國波茨坦廣場　　

　　哥本哈根項目也是非常有挑戰(zhàn)性的，因為它是在已建成的城市中心上進行設計。哥本哈根在2011年的時候遭受了一次很大的暴雨沖擊，遭遇了極大的損害。當時政府已經(jīng)提出一個關于氣候適應性的政策，由于當時遭受暴雨，人們又對這個法案重新進行了商討，去制定一個新的規(guī)劃。我們和ramboll集團一起參加了當時的規(guī)劃競賽，最后在競賽中勝出。這個項目的挑戰(zhàn)就是怎樣實施基礎設施系統(tǒng)和防洪系統(tǒng)規(guī)劃，以及怎樣提升公共空間的水質。

LAC：Potsdamer platz and the recent Copenhagen project in Germany have realized the program of water resistance and storm drainage, combining the public green areas with drainage system , what challenges do you have in the projects?

Brückmann： For the Potsdamer Plaza, the challenge was that the plaza or the whole area was ordered that the storm water should be released to the sewer system. Storm water should be captured and treated onside and slowly released to the river. And at the same time, the idea of the urban design from Renzo Piano was he designed the device center with a big lake, and he wanted to have this urban element as usual that should have very clean water. There are different topics in the project, the design topics but also functional storm management topics. The challenges were actually combined in this project.
　　The Copenhagen project, this was very challenging, because we have been working on existing structures. The entire city of Copenhagen was hit by a very strong flood, and suffered heavy damage. The policy of Copenhagen climate plan has been released already, but they had to step back and to see what they needed. We have been part of the competition to provide solutions together with Ramboll. We won this competition for one part of the city. The challenges were that how to implement system infrastructure, flood management system, and how to combine the flood management with improvement of quality of urban spaces and public spaces.

如何理解海綿城市

景觀中國：當前雨洪管理和海綿城市已成為世界性議題，您怎樣理解海綿城市建設的全球化背景？

布呂克曼：這是一個很好的問題，因為我們所有人都面臨著氣候變化的問題。我們認為這很有可能促進全球合作，與那些有雨洪管理、整合規(guī)劃經(jīng)驗的國家進行交流，合作解決問題。海綿城市在美國和德國這樣的國家已經(jīng)有大約20年或是30年的發(fā)展歷程。亞洲國家正快速發(fā)展，這就成為了一個很好的平臺，讓我們在全球的背景下共同解決雨洪管理的問題，并把水文設計與景觀設計融合起來。

LAC：Recently storm management and sponge city have become worldwide issues, how do you understand the globalization background of sponge city construction?

Brückmann： I think this is a very good question, because we are all hit by global climate change. We think that it is a very good possibility to globally work together to exchange experiences with some countries who work with storm management, integrated planning. Sponge City issues in other countries have started for 20 or 30 years, such as Germany and USA. Because of the strong development of Asia countries, this becomes a very good platform and under this globalization context, we can work together in this field of storm management and integrate the design into urban landscape architecture.

景觀中國：您認為海綿城市建設的終極目標是什么？城市居民能夠如何從中受益？

布呂克曼：當著手建造或是規(guī)劃城市區(qū)域時，我們面對的是世界各地的場所，但它們有相同的問題，其中有些問題可能更依靠工程師來解決，所以海綿城市不是一個新問題。事實上，這個問題由來已久，在城市化開始的時候就存在。
海綿城市的目標與創(chuàng)建更加安全、更好的城市生活目標相一致。它的大背景是節(jié)約和保護水資源。海綿城市聚焦于水資源，其目標是為下水道系統(tǒng)減少雨水徑流、消減洪峰、提升水質。最后，我們認為海綿城市是實現(xiàn)基礎設施與城市環(huán)境可持續(xù)發(fā)展的基石。通過海綿，我們把城市中產(chǎn)生的水通過一種自然的方式管理起來，讓自然的水再循環(huán)到自然中去。

LAC：What do you think the ultimate goal of sponge city construction? And how could citizens benefit from it?

Brückmann： When you start to construct or to plan urban area, we face every place worldwide, the same problem issues, one of these sorts of engineers, so this is not a new invention or a new problem. Actually it is a problem from the beginning when urbanization started.
　　The goal of sponge city is related to the goal to create safer and better life in the city. And the background is that we have to save and protect our resources. Sponge city is focusing on water resources and the goal of sponge city is to reduce runoff and improve water quality in rivers and to minimize pollution by overflow from sewer system. Finally we think and believe sponge city is the stepstone to develop highly sustainable system in our infrastructure and in our urban environment. So the picture of sponge is a natural way how water is received, treated and released to nature.

景觀中國：水作為海綿城市建設中最重要的一個因素，您認為設計師應當如何來理解水？在管理水的問題上應當充當怎樣的角色？

布呂克曼：我認為設計師已經(jīng)了解到水的美學價值，人們具有親水性，喜歡臨水鍛煉，我們認為這是功能性水系統(tǒng)結合的結果。但是沒有人對與水相關的基礎設施進行這樣的設計，而只是設計水景，打造漂亮城市景觀。而海綿城市的一個重要轉變，就是將傳統(tǒng)的地下基礎設施變?yōu)榭梢姷牡厣显?，目前很多的地方已?jīng)實現(xiàn)了這種設計。我們在鄉(xiāng)村中看到的傳統(tǒng)的水管理設施中，往往會發(fā)現(xiàn)一些外露的排水系統(tǒng)。設計師的任務就是使它們美觀，去了解怎樣既完成基礎設施建造的需求，又能將它們良好地結合到城市景觀中去。
　　我是土木工程師，因此更多從工程的角度理解很多建筑物。而我發(fā)現(xiàn)設計師會從一些新的視角來思考水系統(tǒng)，他們先對設計提出一個美好的愿景來引導整個項目，然后再進行實施建造。所以我認為設計師更多的是一個引導者角色，同時也要有能夠與藝術、工程等其他學科相結合的能力，從而完成綠色基礎設施和景觀相融合設計。

LAC：As water is the most important factor in sponge city construction, how do you think the designers understand water? What role do they act in water management?

Brückmann： I think that designers already know that water is a very esthetic element. That people like to be on water and exercise to water. We think that must be the combination of functional water systems. Infrastructures nobody does. And also the design of landscapes, urbanscapes where we integrate water as water feature for nice design. They await how to do it and the feature of sponge city can lift up the underground infrastructure to visible element. And many places have already realized that. In traditional water management, you can see open drainage systems when you go to the village. To make it nice, this is the task of designers and the understanding of designers how it works, what it is needed for the infrastructure, how we can combine it in a nice way for nice landscape or urbanscape.
　　Because I am a civil engineer, I know more constructions more from part of engineering set. What I learn is that designers are open to think the system from a new perspective. The following structures and planning should start after the vision design ideas of designers. So I think the role of designers for water management should be more leading role, and they have the ability to integrate all other issues from art, engineering to some engineering.

景觀中國：和傳統(tǒng)模式相比，戴水道公司對此有怎樣的設計理念？您認為海綿城市建設的關鍵之處和難點在哪幾方面？

布呂克曼：我們認為傳統(tǒng)模式是指在過往的城市化過程中，人們規(guī)劃水系統(tǒng)的方式往往著眼于城市的功能、技術和經(jīng)濟因素，城市規(guī)劃師根據(jù)需求制定原則，所有與水相關的基礎設施都要在此原則下進行設計。而戴水道所理解的新模式和傳統(tǒng)模式不同，我們認為沒有一個統(tǒng)一的原則和分層體系，而是將城市規(guī)劃、水系統(tǒng)和社會文化功能進行整合設計，把多種元素聚集在一起，達到可持續(xù)發(fā)展的目標和效益。
我認為海綿城市建設的難點和關鍵有兩個。第一點是教育，怎樣讓從事規(guī)劃設計的人員和政府人員更好的認識海綿城市的關鍵點、建設目標以及建造原因，這恐怕是現(xiàn)在很多地區(qū)尚未解決問題。第二個是技術層面，怎樣在已建區(qū)域和新建區(qū)域中實施海綿城市體系。

LAC：Compare with traditional models, what design concept does Atelier Dreiseitl have? What do you think the key point and difficulties in sponge city construction?

Brückmann： Traditional model is completely connected to functional design，technical design and economic design. And the optimization of this water system and the needs come from urban planners, which means the urban planners set the rules and all the water infrastructures have to be followed. This is how we understand traditional models. And Atelier Dreseitl makes it different. We think that there is not a rule and hierarchy, and we think that we have to be done at the same time. So we have to start with the vision for urban planning together with the vision for water planning for water resource management, and also for the social cultural function and design. So these different factors come together and then we can create sustainable new development.
　　For the key points and difficulties of sponge city construction, I think the first one is education. So you need to educate people, planners and government officials what is needed to get to the point of the sponge city, what is the goal of the sponge city and why we need sponge city. This is very important. Secondly, it is also very important to know what is the possible in existing structures and what is the possible in the new structures to implement sponge city structures.

海綿城市的政策與實現(xiàn)

景觀中國：海綿城市建設往往涉及諸多學科和部門，您認為應如何來理解或實現(xiàn)海綿城市的多方合作？

布呂克曼：這是一個非常有難度的問題，因為它直接涉及到了當?shù)匚幕?。每個項目都具有特殊性，我們的設計也意味著是去規(guī)劃創(chuàng)建一種文化，需要考慮它的過去與將來。海綿城市建設是多學科參與的工作，從規(guī)劃、建造到最終完成，都不僅僅是設計師的任務。我們要考慮許多不同團體的聲音，因為每一方都會對項目有不同的認識和理解。我們首先需要把各方聚集在一起并對他們進行教育，這樣我們才能從同一起點出發(fā)，進而達到新的高度。每個人都可能對解決方案擁有不同理解，因此需要通過交流切磋達成共識，找到一個折中的方法，為這個特定區(qū)域設計出最好的方案。

LAC：Sponge city construction involves many disciplines and departments, how do you understand the multi-cooperation of sponge city construction? How to realize it?

Brückmann： I think this is the most difficult topic, because this directly relates with the culture of the location which means planning culture, construction culture and what have been made in the past and what to be made in the future. Sponge city construction you mentioned is a multi-disciplinary task, so it is not only designers' task-we do it, we plan it and we make it. We have to consider a lot of different parties. We, at first, have to bring all these different parties together to teach them, so that we could start from the same point and also get the new point. I mean everybody can have their own understanding and opinion about solutions. They must exchange their ideas and find a compromise to create the best solution for the specific location.

景觀中國：德國是最早對城市雨水采用政府管制制度的國家，請問德國海綿城市政策和技術對中國有哪些借鑒之處？

布呂克曼：德國確實已經(jīng)實施了很多成功的海綿城市項目，但其中也有很多不足，尤其是實施層面，很少有大尺度大規(guī)模的項目，但是有很多示范性案例。法律雖然要求建設更多的海綿城市項目以解決城市問題，但是德國很多城市已有的設施結構體系，讓海綿城市的理念很難在各個地方融入城市生活和結構。
　　所以，中國可以學到的一點是，不能把一個國家的技術單純的從一個國家復制到另一個國家，從一個城市復制到另一個城市。每個地方都有不同的規(guī)范，決策者也不一樣，要結合當?shù)氐男枨筮M行設計，和每個地方的領導者深入溝通并引導他們做出正確的決策。德國設計師和專家可以到中國來進行演講和交流，或許也可部分地指導項目，帶給大家一些不同區(qū)域的優(yōu)秀示范性項目，還可以進行實地考察。
　　總之，信息共享是一個很好也很重要的方式，比如貴網(wǎng)站就可以傳播一些關于海綿城市的信息，像你們舉辦的活動、制作的海綿城市專題等都起到了教育作用。而大學也可以在這方面培養(yǎng)學生，幫助學生創(chuàng)建開放性的設計理念，從項目案例中學習和吸收優(yōu)良經(jīng)驗。我認為中國和德國的政策不同。在德國，國家頒布規(guī)范化的法文法規(guī)，地方政府進行具體的實施。而在中國，政策的決定和推行主要靠中央政府。
　　所以我認為海綿城市更適合這種方式來推行，因為它不是一個城市或地區(qū)的單獨決定，而是在共同的目標下，整個社會朝同一方向共同努力才有可能完成。在這一點上，我認為德國應向亞洲國家如中國和新加坡學習，他們強有力的政策能夠推動項目穩(wěn)步的推進，從而達到一個明確的目標。

LAC：Germany is the earliest country to adopt government controlling for urban water, what aspects do you think China could learn from German sponge city policies and technologies?

Brückmann： Yes. Germany has quite a lot of experiences but there are still a few of unclearness in Germany about implementation especially when you think about to bring it in a big area, so we did a lot of pilot projects. And the laws are demanding to do more sponge city solutions. But the existing structures are hard to integrate sponge city ideas into all Germany urban life and structure.
　　This is the first aspect China could learn that it is impossible just to copy it from one country to another, from one city to another. Because every city has its own rules and the decision driver in every city is different, we have to go to every town and talk to the leadership and lead them to do the right decision about the solution of sponge city construction. What Germany can help is to go to China, give talks and lead part of the projects. Maybe we can showcase the pilot projects distributed in different areas or regions. People could go there to have a look.
　　I mean publishing information share is a very good way. I think your website could give information to other people, and the universities have the chance to train students, and students could propose open-minded design ideas, and learn something from the brilliant projects. I also want to share some experiences.?The policy in Germany and China is different. In Germany, there is a lot of responsibility in city scale, and the state gives laws and guidelines, but the implementation and decision are made by city government. I guess, in China, it is more centralized, and the big decisions are made from the top leadership.
　　Maybe you are more advanced in this field, because I think environmental laws and implementation are the responsibility of the state or the whole social community. It is not the decision only made by one city, and it should be something that everybody should have the responsibility and be on the one direction to make it possible. I think Germany could learn from Asia, not just China but also Singapore, that the very strong policy pushes the project a big move to change structures and to give a key direction.

景觀中國：您在新加坡碧山宏茂橋公園的項目中是怎樣打破傳統(tǒng)的水務領域的規(guī)劃理念？在項目過程中，如何把海綿城市建設的功能性與景觀設計的藝術性作結合？這個項目對中國河道改造和治理有什么指導意義？

布呂克曼： 我們有很多新加坡項目的經(jīng)驗。在碧山公園項目剛開始的時候，我們和CH2MHILL一起為項目所在地的中央水域進行了主體規(guī)劃和概念理論設計。但最重要的一點是，在項目開始之前，我們組織了多次工作研討會，和新加坡的水利部門、公園管理部門和交通設計部門一起來商討設計方案，這是我們打破傳統(tǒng)設計理念的重要方法。這也再一次和教育相關，我們成立工作室之后，就教導有不同觀念的人、不同職責的部門來達成共識，雖然這是一個非常艱苦的、需要不斷努力的過程。在設計方面，我們的出發(fā)點是打造一個完全自然的公園，而真正的自然其實是無法分割的，任何子系統(tǒng)都是無縫銜接的。傳統(tǒng)設計概念是將自然分隔開進行設計，各部門各司其職。而在這個項目中，我們將自然整合在一起，這對于各個部門配合的要求就更加復雜。最后的設計作品也是非常成功的，建成以后，大家也很高興看到這樣一個頗具自然的風貌和價值的景觀。我們也意識到，雖然剛開始各部門會有很多分歧和對合作的抗拒，最后證明我們這種打破傳統(tǒng)理念的合作新模式是有說服力的。??

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新加坡碧山宏茂橋公園

　　碧山公園的特色在于，它是一個大型水域的一部分，還有很多支流，只不過后來隨著城市建設被逐漸覆蓋而成為暗渠，最后也演化成水泥護岸的人工渠道。在這個項目中，怎樣能夠在現(xiàn)代城市肌理中建造更加自然的河道，構建自然的排水設施，是設計師和建筑師的重要任務。?

新加坡碧山宏茂橋公園　　

　　在碧山公園中，海綿城市的功能性或許不能被直接看到，而當暴雨來臨時它的蓄水功能就會體現(xiàn)出來。因為傳統(tǒng)的海綿城市通常是采取分散式的水處理模式。但碧山公園是在城市流域中心的匯水區(qū)。在雨季，周邊的雨水會匯到河道里，跟以往相比，這個項目中我們提供更大尺度的蓄洪儲水空間，滿足了防洪的功能。在項目進行之前，人們不容易接觸到水，現(xiàn)在我們減少了水流速度，讓人們能夠與水進行親密接觸。在旱季，河流的一大部分變成了小流量的連續(xù)溪流，成為一種結合了公園功能的水文景觀，人們可以在低水位的時候親近水源，在高水位的時候將它作為防洪的空間。公園的安全系統(tǒng)是最重要的，我們就此設計了預警系統(tǒng)，及時提示人們離開公園。我們已經(jīng)感到洪水來的沒有以前那么快了，這個公園可以減緩雨洪速度，讓它像排水系統(tǒng)一樣發(fā)揮功效。

　　我認為這個項目是一個很好的作品，它的成功經(jīng)驗表明，在城市的環(huán)境里建造越來越多的自然河道是可行的，能夠給城市和人們帶來更好的生活，讓河流切實可用。

LAC：How do you break the traditional design concept of water sector in the Kallang River Bishan Park in Singapore? In the process of this project, how to combine the functionality of sponge city construction with the artistry of landscape architecture? What guiding significance does the project have to the transformation and management of Chinese waterways?

Brückmann： There are a lot of Singapore experiences. I think at the very first beginning, we did masterplan and visionary concept for the center watershed together with CH2M HILL. After this, we did several workshops with the client- PUB & NParks and the Road construction department. I think these have been key elements for breaking the traditional design concept. This is to do again with the education, so when we have a workshop, we educate people and bring them on the same page, give the vision we can change the traditional design concept. The key for this was that we want to do natural design and the nature nothing is separated. So the traditional design concept is something that has to do with the separation, and the responsibilities are very clear separated in different areas. The new projects that we mixed up are more complicated for the need of collaboration. The real design is convincing now, even for the different parties. At the beginning, there was a big resistance to work together, but in the end, they are accepted, they could also see the great achievements from the integrated planning.
　　The Bishan Park is a project constructed for the entire center watershed where the Kallang River is the main river and there are a lot of small rivers in the upstream where the rivers are mainly covered or not to be seen, or even they have concrete banks. In the process of the project, I mean this is the task of landscape architects and designers to make this in a more natural way and show some experiences how to do it for drainage construction in a natural way even in the urban fabric.
　　The functionality of the sponge city is not directly to be seen in the Bishan Park. During the storm season, it functions as a big retention area. I mean normally when you talk about sponge city, you will think more essential elements. The Bishan Park is somehow a big catchment basin for the big catchment. You can see how the design works during storm events. In this project, you can see we provide much more water retention space than it was before. Before there had not the function for fast convenience to the sea, we reduce the speed of the flow and give more space to the water. In the dry season, the continuous flow is the landscape combined the park, most of the river. It is all accessible, and the flow is very shallow, people can go to the water and go away from the water. To give more safety during storm events, there are a lot of flood forecasts systems where we have alarm lights, alarm tone. People are aware that the flood will come. We experienced the flooding that it is not as fast as before in that the park could slow the storm and function as drainage system.
　　I think it is a good masterpiece and experience to show that in urban environment, it is possible to have more natural rivers and give people exercises, make river usable.

景觀中國：作為設計公司，戴水道如何參與到生態(tài)公共政策的制定當中，從專業(yè)人士的角度發(fā)出聲音？

布呂克曼： 這和我們的項目有關。因為戴水道公司所做的大部分項目是示范類項目，我們一直在研究應在政策中制定什么，以及怎樣改變政策讓它們適用于項目方案中。政策的制定需要與實踐相結合，而我們也有一些來自世界各地的實踐經(jīng)驗，一些已完成項目可以來引導大家思考這些公共政策是否真正具有指導意義，而實施后的成果能幫助我們更好的改進政策。除了政策本身之外，我們還需要考慮甲方，要為新政策能夠更專業(yè)的執(zhí)行創(chuàng)立一些導則。對于進行中的項目，我們可以直接在項目中應用新政策并觀察實施的效果。這就是我們制定政策，以及如何根據(jù)需求隨時改進政策的過程。

LAC：As a design company, how does Atelier Dreiseitl take part in the process of ecological public policy making from the professionals' position?

Brückmann： This is also related to our projects. Because most projects of Atelier Dreseitl are pilot projects, we have been studying what the policy needs and what we have to change the policy to make it possible and accepted by other projects and design solutions. We have not just policies, but also the clients, so we have to develop guidelines for more professional implementation of the new policy. We have some realized experiences from all over the world. If there is a running project, we can work directly with the new policy and look the project implementation. This is the process of policy making that we make projects and try to bring the needs of the projects to change the policy.?